If you manage a team of managers and someone has told you to start running skip-level meetings, you are probably wondering what the point actually is, and what you are even supposed to talk about. Learning how to run skip-level meetings well is one of the most underrated leadership moves available to you, and most senior leaders either skip them entirely or use them wrong.

Skip-level meetings are not a surveillance tool. They are not a feedback loop on your direct reports. They are not a project status check. They are relationship infrastructure, and when you treat them that way, they change the culture of your organization one conversation at a time.

In this episode, I walk you through three specific reasons why skip-level meetings should be part of your leadership practice: relationships run in both directions, this is what human leadership actually looks like in practice, and senior leaders can give junior employees something their manager simply cannot provide, which is career visibility. I also share a personal story from my time at Thomson Reuters that shows exactly how skip-levels play out over the long arc of a career.

I break down how to set them up the right way with your managers first, why a formal agenda works against you, what to actually talk about in the meeting, and what to redirect when the conversation starts heading somewhere it should not go. Whether you are the senior leader initiating these meetings or the junior employee trying to get them started in your organization, I cover both sides of the conversation with specific strategies for where you sit on the org chart.

Listen and catch the full episode here or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also watch it and replay it on my YouTube channel, JanelAndersonPhD.

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Episode 262 - How Do I Get More Visible at Work Without Bragging?

I manage a team of managers, and I keep hearing that I should be doing skip level meetings with the people on their teams, but honestly, I'm not really sure what the point is, or what we'd even be talking about. Can you help? Yeah, I got that question very recently, and what reminded me of doing this episode, was actually a conversation that I had with somebody at a conference that I was at recently, and we were having lunch together, and he was telling me that he does skip level meetings, but he's not sure if his team, like, really gets why they're doing them, and I said, I just got this question recently from somebody, I need to do a podcast episode on it, so this topic comes up both when I work with senior leaders and when I work with junior managers, because they, when they hear about skip level meetings, if they're not already doing them or doing them well, they wonder about them, if there's something they should be doing, if they, you know, and how they can do them better.

So, in this episode, we're going to tackle how to run skip level meetings, what a skip level meeting is all about. How you build relationships as a senior leader, and if you're more junior in the organization, how you build relationships with senior leaders through skip level meetings. What the agenda in a skip level meeting should be about, and so much more.

Okay, so when we think about skip level meetings, first let me just do a little bit of definition, in case you're listening to this podcast, and going, like, I don't even know what she means. Skip level meetings. So, skip level meetings are when a senior leader has a meeting with somebody who is not one level below them, that would be their direct report, but two levels below them, that would, you know, skipping the manager in between, that's what's meant by a skip level meeting.

And again, there are individual contributors who sometimes, who've heard about skip level meetings, and they, you might be thinking, like, I want to do skip level meetings, but I'm worried that I'll feel like I'm going around my manager's back. How do I get this started in my organization in a way that doesn't undermine my manager? So, if you're on that side of the fence, we've got you covered in this episode as well. I've got strategies and tips from across the board, from no matter where you sit on the organizational chart.

Now, you might already be catching on that I'm a fan of skip level meetings. I think they are a fantastic contribution to the culture in an organization. So, most leaders who ask about skip level meetings are not necessarily thinking about them as a feedback tool or a way to get unfiltered information about the front lines. They instead they often are thinking about how do I get a pulse of the organization. I mean, to a certain extent, sometimes they are thinking about like what's life on the front lines like, but really that's not why to use skip level meetings.

Another great reason to not use skip level meetings is to check in on how your direct reports are doing, how they're performing as managers. That is not the purpose of skip level meetings. Now, if you are in the middle and skip level meetings are being talked about in your organization, I want you to know it's not to check up on you, that is not the purpose of skip level meetings. When you need information gathering in your organization, if that is a primary intent, gather it other ways. There are there are all kinds of other ways to find out what's going on in the front lines. There are also other ways to find out how your managers are doing.

If you have a team of individual managers reporting to you, there are 360 reviews, there are employee pulse surveys, there's all kinds of different ways to find out how the folks in your organization are performing at their jobs. That is not the purpose of skip level meetings. What skip level meetings purpose really is is to build relationships and to create organizational relationship currency in your organization.

So the real question underneath skip level meetings should be this, how do I build the kind of organizational relationships that make this organization actually work, and how can I be a better leader across levels over time, and before there's a crisis by having strong relationships with people in the organization. So, again, skip level meetings, when done right, they are relationship building infrastructure. They are not about what's happening today on Project XYZ in your organization, they are about knowing the humans who work in your organization, who work on the org chart below you.

If you're that senior leader, or if you're the more junior person in this conversation, or in this equation, it's about having relationship with people at different levels in your organization. So, when you know the humans in your organization, both upward and downward, then things like promotions and reorganizations and hard conversations, and so on, there's already a foundation and a familiarity to work with when those kinds of things come up.

Now, I wanted to share personally how skip level meetings have been important to me earlier in my career, when I worked at Thompson Reuters, and I stepped into that role. Skip level meetings were already in play, and in my first role there, I reported to somebody named Rick. Rick reported to Jennifer, and I had skip level meetings once a quarter with Jennifer, for like, they were short, they were like 30 minutes, but it just gave me an opportunity to get to know her and, and to really understand what was happening in the industry, not necessarily in her job or whatever, but it was a great way to understand what was happening across the industry for me to build a relationship with her.

Now, eventually she got promoted to be the chief technology officer of one of the product lines, and so then she was no longer the VP that I reported to, and the person who took her role, his name was Bruce, and so this is kind of a funny story here. Apologies, I'm not going to name my colleagues in this, but apologies to my colleagues if they're listening, because this actually happened. So Bruce steps in as the new VP of the area, and so he would be my skip level, so and there were two other managers who reported to the same director that that we did, or that I did, and I went to my director shortly after the new manager, Bruce, start, or the new VP, Bruce started, and I said to my manager, I was like, skip level meetings fell off of my calendar, like, does Bruce do them, and my manager, who was at the directorate level, he said, I don't know, you should ask him, and so I was like, oh, okay, perfect, so I took initiative, and I asked him the next time I saw him, like, grabbed him in the hallway, and I was like, hey, Bruce, I used to do skip level meetings with Jennifer, I don't see them on my calendar anymore, is that something that you would do?

And he said, "Oh, absolutely, like reach out to my admin and set them up. So I reached out to his admin and copied him on it and sent her a quick note. Said, "You know, Bruce and I are going to do quarterly skip level meetings. I used to do them for 30 minutes with Jennifer, so 30 minutes would be, you know, perfectly sufficient. Okay, so two of my colleagues, also managers at the same level, they see that I now have skip level meetings with Bruce, and they're like, I heard them talk. I actually heard them talking outside in the hallway, and not too far outside of my office. And I heard them saying, How come Janelle gets skip level meetings with Bruce?

Do you have them on your calendar? And neither one of them did, and they were having this little memory, and so I stepped out of my office. I think they did not. They either didn't know I was in there or they didn't know I could hear them. Just simply said, and if you've been a longtime listener of the podcast, this will not surprise you at all, but I just simply said, hey, I couldn't help it over here, and I'm having skip level meetings with Bruce. That is absolutely true, I am, and the reason I'm having them is because I asked, and I bet if you asked, he would ask you, you know, tell you to go ahead and set them up too, so kind of put them in their place a little bit for having the gossipy conversation right outside my office about me.

But anyway, then I went on to have the skip level meetings with Bruce, which was great, and eventually I got promoted and I became a director, and Bruce was my immediate boss, and I gotta tell you, it was such an easy transition, because I already knew him and he already knew me. We didn't have to build a relationship from scratch, because it already existed. And so, for somebody who is, you know, who gets promoted, it's just such a great benefit to have had skip level meetings with the person who is now your boss, so I mean there are so many reasons from all aspects of the org chart to be having those skip level meetings, so again, skip level meetings are not about exchanging information, they are about investing in relationships, they are about relationship development and thinking about relationship as currency inside the organization.

Think about this: when a senior leader takes time to sit down with somebody who is two levels down from them and treats that meeting as a relationship conversation, not as a status check, not as like getting feedback on how the manager is doing, they are making a deposit in the organizational trust account, they are making a deposit in organizational culture that will pay dividends for years. So, I want to give you three quick reasons why skip level meetings should happen, and just the why behind skip level meetings. And then I'll wrap the episode by talking about some of the things to talk about in the skip level meetings.

Okay, so reason number one, why to have skip level meetings. Well, relationships run in both directions. So, the obvious direction here is a senior leader getting to know the people on the team who are deeper in the organization, further down the org chart than them. But the less discussed direction is just as important. The employee gets to know the senior leader as a real person, so in most organizations, people who are two levels down from a senior leader experience those senior leaders primarily as sources of decision making, announcements, and you know, pressure, they're setting deadlines, they're setting goals that everybody else's goals need to map into, and they don't really know them as real people, and that distance can breed anxiety and detachment, and in some cases distrust, not because there is anything to distrust necessarily, or that anything is wrong, but just simply because there's no relationship.

So, when a senior leader shows up curious, both you know, and is personal and engaged, genuinely interested in that person two levels down, it changes the entire experience of working in that organization, because if you are that person two levels down and your senior leader two levels up wants to know you as a human being, that just changes the nature of the place that you work. It makes it so much cooler to work there because people care about each other and they want to get to know each other, and that matters way more than most senior leaders realize.

Okay, the reason number two of why to have skip level meetings is that this is what human leadership actually looks like. So, there's a lot of talk about leadership, authentic leadership, human leadership, people first leadership, but skip level meetings are one of the ways to not necessarily talk about it, but to actually do it, to walk the talk. So, this is one of the most concrete and repeatable ways to actually practice that kind of human-centered leadership, authentic leadership, whatever the buzzword of the day is. You can't know your organization from a distance. You can't build psychological safety by announcing it in an all-hands meeting. You build it one conversation at a time with actual people who remember that you showed up, that you were curious, that you wanted to know who they are.

So, the senior leaders who are the most trusted in their organizations often are not the most charismatic or the most technologically brilliant. They're the ones who made time for people and made people feel valued in one on one conversations, not people who are immediately useful to them for something. So, skip level meetings are a built-in structure for doing exactly that, building value in the relationship and showing people that they are valued, so number three, the third reason why is that you are giving, if you are the senior leader, you are giving that junior person something that their manager cannot, and that is career visibility.

So being known and being seen by senior leaders is one of the most valuable career development assets any employee can ever have or build, and it is something that your direct manager can literally not give you. Only a senior leader can give you that additional visibility. So, when your name comes up in front of senior leaders for a promotion, for a special project, for some kudos about something that you did or a key opportunity with a client. What matters is that someone in the room already knows who you are. So, skip level meetings are how you make sure that happens for people who are doing good work, but who otherwise might stay invisible in the organization.

And this is a form of sponsorship, even if it's never like formal sponsorship, and even if you never use that word, having those relationships in place is that visibility that is so important to a junior person in your organization, and sometimes you know you have no way of knowing who your high potentials, high performers are necessarily going to be once they get fully developed in your organization, so it's important to start doing this early with folks. Okay, now let's shift the conversation here. We just talked about why, so I gave you three great reasons why to have those skip level meetings. Now let's talk about how to do it, and I want to presume that maybe there aren't skip level meetings in your organization.

I also maybe could presume that there are skip level meetings, but people just aren't that confident in what they should be doing in them, so we'll address it from both directions. Once for some of you, there are no skip level meetings. How do you even go about getting it set up in the first place? And then, if you're already doing them, how do you fine tune them to make them be more valuable? Okay, so the first is set it up right with your managers first, so if you're a senior leader, before you go scheduling skip level meetings with your direct reports, direct reports, you want to make sure that the manager in the middle is absolutely involved and knows what's going on, and by involved I don't mean like asking them if they think it's a good idea, no, you're not asking for permission, you certainly don't need it if you are the senior leader here, but I do want you to be transparent, and I want you to tell them why you're doing it.

Something like, hey, I'm going to start doing quarterly skip level meetings with your team. It's not about checking up on anybody. I just want to build relationships with them. I want to hear what they're thinking about their work, what they're thinking about the industry. If anything comes up that you need to be aware of, I will certainly let you know, but if anything comes up that you need to be aware of, I promise you I will be redirecting them back to you, because it is not their place to talk about issues that they're having with you with me. If they brag on you, I'll let you know that, but the purpose of the meeting is not to even talk about you at all. In fact, it's quite likely that your name won't even come up.

Okay, so that single conversation that you have with your direct reports prevents the meeting from landing as a surveillance tool, and it preserves the trust of the middle manager in between. Now, if your managers, your direct reports aren't already having skip level meetings with their second below them on the org chart, if they do have a second level, I mean, if they're frontline supervisors, then there's probably nobody for them to have, but if they're managers who have supervisors, and then the supervisors have individual reports, then it, then I would encourage them to do it as well.

Now, if you're an individual contributor and you don't have skip level meetings, this is something that I would encourage you to talk to your manager about first. Don't go, don't skip a level here. It's very important not to skip a level in socializing the idea. So, you would want to say, 'Hey, I listened to this podcast episode about skip level meetings, and I thought it would be really valuable for us to have that kind of relationship currency in our organization. And by all means, share this episode with them, so that they know what we're talking about with skip level meetings. Of course, explain it in your own words as well, but then I would encourage them to listen to this episode, so that they really understand the value of skip level meetings, not only for you personally, but for your, for their own manager, so that two levels up, and then encourage them to start the conversation about how do they have skip level meetings two levels up for themselves as well.

So this could be something that can really cascade across the organization, and it can start with you, if you are an individual contributor, by socializing the idea first. Again, don't just go setting up a meeting with your manager's manager, you want to socialize the idea, get some buy-in for the idea, and then ideally it should come from the top down that your manager's manager has bought into the idea and is putting those meetings on your calendar, okay. So that is number one, just how to get the ball rolling. Number two, do not have a formal agenda. So, if there already is skip, if there already are skip level meetings in your organization, and there are like tightly structured agendas, I want you to just like loosen that up, back off.

Okay, a skip level meeting with a detailed agenda signals that this is a business meeting with specific output and specific outcomes we want attached to it, and that is exactly the wrong signal to be sending. So, if you do have a light structure, that's totally fine, but leave it really loose. The goal is to have a conversation, not deliverables. So, consider opening with something personal, like what's going on in your world outside of work? What did you do this weekend? You know, what are you excited about with the seasons changing? Or, you know, I mean, here in Minnesota, the seasons feel like the seasons are always changing, so there's always something to talk about, about the weather and the things that we do outside that are related to the weather, or if we don't like the outside during certain seasons, what we do inside to avoid the outside.

So, here in Minnesota, it's really easy to have that conversation about the weather and to be able to learn something about the other person simply through a conversation about the weather. Now, if you're not in a place where seasons change or the change is not very dramatic, then you could, I mean, there's probably still things that happen related to seasons, but you might then shift to conversations about, you know, restaurants or sports teams, or whatever it is that's that's happening in your world outside of work, so things that people are excited about, what they've been reading, what they've been thinking about, if they've, you know, seen any good movies lately, so give room for your, the skip level person that you're talking to, to really bring themselves into the meeting, not just by their job title, but with their personal interests. So, we're going to lose the formal agenda as step two.

Okay, so step one is we socialize the idea. Step two, no formal agenda. Now we're left with, well, what are we going to talk about? Okay, so what to talk about during the skip level meeting. You could talk about the person's career interests and where they want to go with their career, again, not in a performance review sort of way, but just like what drew you to this topic, or, and like, do you know what was your undergraduate degree in, and you know those kinds of questions, so you really are learning about the person professionally and not just personally, because it isn't just about like some great recipe they made in their kitchen last night, although that is part of it, and if I was your skip level direct report, we would probably be having that conversation, because I like to cook, but you know it's also about like how they see the industry, how they see the field again, what drew them to this line of work, and and so on.

So you're learning about them professionally, not just personally again, but you don't want it to be a status update about the projects they're working on. You want it to be about, like, what makes them tick and why they, why they do this kind of work. Now, if you are in the junior level position in this conversation, and you're thinking, like, what do I talk about with my, you know, my vice president in a skip level meeting, or with my director in a skip level meeting again, you wanted to talk about, like, the very same questions. You know, what drew you to this line of work? What is your undergraduate degree in? How did you, you know, get to where you are in your career? So very similar type of questions, but you're just asking them upward instead of downward.

You could also be, again, if you're the more junior person, you could also be asking them about industry trends, or like, how do you think AI is going to impact our industry, not just now, but like two years from now, five years from now. So, anything that's just genuinely interesting to both of you related to your work, these are human conversations, and of course, the things that are genuinely interesting to you both that are outside of work, as well. It could be that you're both parents. It could be that you both like movies, or reading the same kinds of books, or going to the same watching the same kind of sporting events, or participating in the same kinds of hobbies.

So, really think about it as a 10,000 foot view in this conversation. It's a 10,000 foot view, for sure on work, because you're not going to get down into the nitty gritty on project work or anything like that, but again, what do you both see happening in your field, in your industry, for the future of work, all of that. So, these are conversations that make somebody feel like a human being, like a colleague, and not a subordinate, or not like a senior leader, but they, it's just human to human, so a handful of things to what not to talk about before we wrap this up.

So I want to be clearly straight up with you about this, and you might need to be explicit in the first skip level meeting. So, what not to talk about, this is not a complaint session about your manager, so if you are the senior leader leading in initiating the skip level meetings again? If the person comes in, like, I don't know what to do, what we're supposed to be talking about in these, I've never had one of these before. Then it is up to you, as the senior leader, to just sort of set the stage, and you'll say, this is not a complaint session about your manager. If something comes up that sounds like a serious concern, I'm going to redirect you back to talking to your manager about it, if it is something that is completely egregious, and I might have to direct you to HR.

But it's, you know, and then if something comes up that sounds like a complaint against their manager, then you would say, you as a senior leader would say that sounds like something worth bringing up at your next one on one with your manager directly. I'm happy to help you think through how to do that, if you're stuck, or I'm happy to redirect you to HR if you need to talk to somebody else about it, that's not me, because this is something that you need to work directly with your manager before it gets escalated to something to me, because we don't want to take this on as an escalation unless it is something that you've tried to address on your own, and then the proper channels for escalation are usually through your HR team not skipping a level, okay?

So that's the first thing you want to say. This is not about complaining about your manager. This is also not a project status update. This is not a time for you to tell me about all the things that you're working on. You have other mechanisms for that, and the right level of that information gets aggregated and bubbled up to me. So this is not necessarily a place for that. I don't want to be down in the weeds on your, on your individual projects. So, this is not a project status update, and this is not a performance conversation again. If it's about, like, how am I doing, and am I doing okay, and how can I be better at something, those should be those requests, or those lines of conversation should be redirected back to their direct manager, and saying this out loud early and gently actually will relax people, so they know what this is about.

Because when somebody comes into a skip level meeting at the junior level, if they haven't, like, say, listened to this podcast, or haven't heard about skip level meetings going really well in other organizations, or other pockets of the organization, they might not know what it's all about and what to do in it. Okay, so again, if you are that senior leader who's setting up the skip levels, or you are the junior person asking for skip levels, let's just talk a little bit about cadence and length. So, quarterly is the, in my estimation, quarterly is the appropriate frequency for having skip level meetings. You don't need to do them more than quarterly. 30 minutes should be sufficient.

I mean, if you want to, if you were a senior leader and you wanted to be generous with your time, you could put it on for 45 but 30 minutes should absolutely be sufficient. If you are an organization that is co-located, absolutely do these in person when possible, because the relationship is just simply going to build faster. It's okay to take notes, so like it's okay to like write down somebody's dog's name, or write down that they like to go camping, or write down their children's name, or their spouse or partner's name. Absolutely, it's fine to take notes on that sort of thing, because we can't necessarily presume on either side of the conversation here that everybody's going to remember everything, so it's okay to just, you know, jot a few notes down, so then the next time you have that skip level meeting, you can find out, like, oh, how did your daughter's graduation from high school party go.

And you know the daughter's name, and you can refer to it by, you know, you can refer to her daughter by name, so those kinds of things, totally, you know, I mean, I wouldn't be like fast and furious, taking notes on everything the other person said. I would, the way I would approach it is, I would immediately after the meeting is over, regardless of which side of the conversation I'm on, if I'm the senior leader or if I'm the more junior person in that conversation, I would want to get back to my desk, write down as many pertinent, germane things as I could remember. He likes fly fishing. She has a daughter who's graduating from high school or college. Their dog's name is Skippy. You know, whatever.

I would write down as many things as I could remember. Again, I personally probably wouldn't be taking a lot of notes in the meeting, but I would. But if it was something like, let's say they mention an industry publication that you haven't heard of, that that absolutely, I would write that down, because that is going to go out of my head, but I will probably be able to remember that their dog's name is Skippy. Okay, so there you have it, in terms of cadence and format. Now it is time to put it to work, because that is what this segment, where I give you something to do this week, that is what it is called.

Put it to work. So, this week pick one of these things to do based on your role and your situation, and I'm going to give you like a menu of choices here. And based on whether you are the senior person or the junior person, and whether you have skip level meetings already or you don't have skip level meetings already, you're going to find which is your assignment to put it to work, so here we go. Put it to work. If you're a leader and you don't have skip level meetings, plan out what it would look like to have them and start socializing the idea with your direct reports. Those would be the people who are in the middle of the skip level, the people who are being skipped over.

So you want to talk with them about it, so that they are not taken by surprise, so get skip level meetings, and then get skip level meetings on your calendar by the end of the month. So, in the first week, you're going to be talking to your immediate direct reports about it, and then by the end of the month, get those first round of skip levels on the calendar, even if you don't have time to do them right now, get them on the calendar for a month or two months from now. Okay, if you already have them, and if you're the senior leader, and you already have skip level meetings, make them more intentional, or perhaps share this episode with your skip level meeting attendees, so that they can make them more valuable, and they can think about it differently, they can think about it as investing in the relationship themselves.

Okay, okay, so that's if you're a senior letter level leader. Now, if you are a mid-level manager and your organization does not have them, get the conversation going. Talk to your senior leaders about the value of skip level meetings. You might even be thinking about somebody who reports directly to you, who is high potential, high performer, needs that extra visibility in the organization. You're not just doing it just for them, but you're doing it for their peers as well, because there may be some other potential or some other places in the organization that it would be really beneficial for them to have visibility, or for others in the organization to have visibility into them, so you're thinking about it from your direct reports vantage point and how much value it will bring to them.

It's a great retention strategy as well, because I mean, if, and I know that in different industries right now, some industries are really hot, and we absolutely need to need people, and other industries people are getting laid off, but, but for your high performers and your high potentials, you want to keep them around, and if they have visibility into the other parts of the organization, that's going to make them feel valued, and it is more likely to encourage them to stay, but again, you want to do it for all of the team, not just your high performers and high potentials, if you already do have skip level meetings and you're the manager who's being skipped over, think of, or if you are, you know, you do skip level meetings of your own, start to think up new questions that you can ask that can deepen the relationship with those that you're having skip level meetings with, whether that you're thinking up because you and you may have them in both directions, if you're one of those middle managers.

If you're not yet in a position to run skip level meetings yourself, because you are in that junior position, I want you to think about who is two levels above you and whether a relationship with that person exists for you, and if it doesn't, consider asking for skip level meetings, so most senior leaders would say yes when asked directly, but I want you to absolutely do this with the support of your manager, the person who is in between, who is being skipped over, so that they understand that you're not doing this to circumvent them or to circumvent their power or authority in any way.

And again, if they're not familiar with skip level meetings, or if they don't have a necessarily a positive perspective on skip level meetings, share this episode with them, so that they know what your real, what your real ask is. In so, okay, there you have it. That is your put it to work call to action, regardless of which, for whichever level you are at, okay, and you know the people in your organization who are doing great work but staying invisible, well, that is not their problem to solve. It is yours. It is yours if you are the individual contributor who's feeling invisible, or if you're a manager whose team is not getting the visibility upward in the organization, and if you're a senior leader, and you don't know what's happening down below, and you don't know who's doing the amazing work, or all of that, it is incumbent upon you to put these skip level meetings in place.

So, I look forward to hearing all about your successes with your skip level meetings. Always make sure to drop me a line, and let me know how it's going. You can hit me up on social media, or on email, and you can find the show notes for today's episode at Janelle anderson.com forward slash 272 Please like and subscribe to this podcast. You know, give it the thumbs up, give it five stars, and follow the podcast on YouTube if that's where you watch it. Subscribe there, or if you are listening on a podcast player, then make sure you subscribe there, so that you don't miss a single episode. It helps me tremendously, and it is absolutely no cost to you. All the only cost to you is just hitting that like button, hitting that thumbs up button, hitting that subscribe button, so it helps other people who might absolutely need this episode find it, so that is why I asked you to do it, because it just helps get my message into more ears. All right, thanks so much. And I will catch you next week, right here on the Working Conversations Podcast. Bye.

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